The U.S pulling out of the Paris Climate Accord

[American_Walrus]

I find it utterly ridiculous, what President Trump and his backers did. I won't go off about how idiotic he is acting like others do, but I really do think it was an awful idea to pull out.

[Smileyface2288]

As long as I'm still alive I am content! Honestly I don't have a clue what's going on nor do I listen when it comes to politicians, politics, and all that Important Junk. *yawn*

[omelott]

This is not a matter to be taken lightly.

It's been a living nightmare for environmentalists since November. Republicans now control the Presidency, House, Senate, Supreme Court and the majority of State Governorships and Legislatures. Lest we be reminded, nearly all of them outright deny (or don't care about) climate change. The fact that we elected these politicians says a lot about what we believe as Americans.

It's no secret that the American fossil fuel industry loves Donald Trump. Here's a few things he's accomplished:

Nominated Rex Tillerson (former CEO of Exxon Mobil) to serve as Secretary of State
Proposed a 31% budget cut to the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency)
Nominated Scott Pruitt (an outspoken climate change denier) to head the EPA
Repealed a bill that restricted coal companies from polluting waterways with mining waste
Approved the continuation of the controversial Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines

That being said, I don't think Americans realize the impact of this decision. The Trump administration is pausing the battle against climate change for 4 years. This is only going to intensify a problem that our generation (and future ones) will be forced to solve.

[Lucy_23x]

I don't think Americans realize the impact of this decision. The Trump administration is pausing the battle against climate change for 4 years.

I think most Americans realise it, they just don't really care about it. I for one, don't care whatsoever about climate change.

I expect no complaining from yah when you have to live by a toxic river on land which is 90% landfill boii

political mastermind.

Oh

[itsConnor_]

It's fucking disgraceful. Climate change is the single greatest challenge our planet faces.

[American_Walrus]

How could you not care about climate change? If we continue at our current rate, ice caps will melt. If the land ice caps melt, more water goes into the ocean, and guess what? That would be catastrophic. Even a 2 foot rise in the ocean level would easily lead to millions, if not billions, dollars of damage to coastal cities (This includes Trump's hometown of New York). Millions of people would have to relocate, which would cost even more money. Also, do you think destroying the 1st and 2nd largest cities (Tokyo first, New York Metro second) are going to be good for jobs? Occupation loss was one of the few formidable concepts that Trump used to defend his withdrawal. I only focused on land ice caps because those would be the most destructive to melt.

The Paris Accord, although it wouldn't have accomplished that much, was a huge leap forward. The idea of getting every single country around the world to contribute to the global issue of climate change was nothing that was ever done. However, the United States, lead by President Trump (who executively made the decision without much consent from those with proof of climate change)is now 1 of 3 countries to reject the accord. Again, the second largest polluter of the Earth by carbon emissions will not be contributing (At least not on a political/national standpoint. This issue has led to people, businesses, and small city or state governments reacting strongly) to a worldwide problem. This withdrawal is a terrible idea. I won't blame you for liking Trump, but I will call someone out for blindly following Trump without researching or thinking for themselves. He's a flawed man.

[SnipeMasterShark]

I will do the TL:DR section first. Trump's point was not about climate change. I don't remember him even addressing it as its own topic. He said the Paris Climate Accord agreement is biased against the U.S. and he will not tolerate it. However, he is willing to open up negotiations that is fair for everyone to solve it. (Paraphrase)


I would like to say that I believe in climate change. I also believe that climate change is cyclic. I also believe it is our responsibility to try to take care of the planet.  Here is a webpage taken from NASA to at least put a few numbers on the table.

https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/hansen_15/


So the climate seems to be changing. What I noticed is that the climate has been considerably hotter than it is now multiple times (keep in mind over the last 137 years we have noticed a rise in temperature of 1.7 degrees F while most data charts are in degree C. That's a BIG difference)

https://climate.nasa.gov/

(Funny distraction taken from the "Causes" page of above website: Meanwhile, some crops and other plants may respond favorably to increased atmospheric CO2, growing more vigorously and using water more efficiently. At the same time, higher temperatures and shifting climate patterns may change the areas where crops grow best and affect the makeup of natural plant communities.) Back to topic.

From what I have gathered, the big hubub is about the rate at which it is changing. But when I look at the charts all i can think is "BEEP LACK OF DATA BEEP LACK OF DATA." I mean we are comparing 137 years to millions.

That being said it is obvious that the CO2 levels are considerably higher now than likely they have ever been in the past, and we can extrapolate that it is changing faster than it used to and we can assume it will continue if we don't do something. That being said, we seem to have a few hundred years before we reach a level never achieved before (which is still easily within a human inhabitational range, what I cannot foresee is the weather impact of having a a bigger warmer ocean and climate on the scale we are discussing so far as severe weather.) So there is no point in causing any singular nation or peoples to suffer needlessly. Let's attack this with a plan that is fair for everyone of all nations.

(On a side note, there are many cities in the world currently situated below sea level keeping the sea at bay with dikes and other things. And I think at this day and age we can solve these problems for future ocean rises. On another note, if the climate gets warmer, there's a chance a large percent of land mass will get warmer and more easily inhabitable/farmable. Wouldn't it be great if large landmasses such as central Canada, Greenland, Russia, became a little warmer and (we can hope) farm-able?)  - This is an off the books opinion, I have not looked into any real facts yet, just fantasies on the IF it got warmer lol. Hopefully it won't get to that though.

[American_Walrus]

I will do the TL:DR section first. Trump's point was not about climate change. I don't remember him even addressing it as its own topic. He said the Paris Climate Accord agreement is biased against the U.S. and he will not tolerate it. However, he is willing to open up negotiations that is fair for everyone to solve it. (Paraphrase)

I know he didn't address the climate - that's the problem. He is far too concerned about the potential (although not very logical) idea of job loss. He isn't assuming the leader of a world leader like he should. It is biased against the U.S - China and India don't have to do nearly as much as us in the early stages. There is absolutely no argument that can disprove this, it's in text. However, the argument of "How come *they* don't have to do it?" is very immature. Also, as the United States, people look to us in what we do and how we react (even though a lot of time these "reactions" are questionable), we get a lot of attention as a country. If we were to follow the accord with every other country included (except Nicaragua and Syria), other big-name polluters like China, India, and some European countries would follow or at least have some sort of template to revise. Just because we were first doesn't mean we were the only ones to be put under this pressure. There are meetings every 5 years, there would definitely be more pressure on these countries as time went on. We were simply the first to be put under this pressure, and we reacted awfully to it.

[SnipeMasterShark]

Here is the clinch: they will be put under pressure later. Later is a big word.  And I did not elect Trump as a world leader. I elected him as President of the United States to do what is best for the United States. Being a world leader is second to that.

Trump did not say he was against bringing up measures to combat it. He said these terms that were in the Paris Climate Accords were unacceptable. That was my only point.


There are many ways to skin a cat, not all include skinning the U.S.

[American_Walrus]

Here is the clinch: they will be put under pressure later. Later is a big word.  And I did not elect Trump as a world leader. I elected him as President of the United States to do what is best for the United States. Being a world leader is second to that.

Trump did not say he was against bringing up measures to combat it. He said these terms that were in the Paris Climate Accords were unacceptable. That was my only point.


There are many ways to skin a cat, not all include skinning the U.S.

1: How likely is Trump to "bring up" ways to combat it? So far he has ignored scientific specialists pointing out the truth to him, he's been sort of against the whole truth of climate change from the start.

2. Later is a big word, but the prediction is 20 years is the margin that the climate will be irreversible. That's why it's urgent. So later HAS to be within that margin, which isn't a long time, really.

3. Yes, his first priority should be America, but America is one of those many countries that lives on the planet. Why not stay in the accord and not fulfill the things he sees as unfair? It's not a law, we won't be penalized, it's an agreement. It's literally a bunch of countries getting together, going "hey let's save the planet!" and agreeing.

I think you're in the right about a lot of things here, and I find myself agreeing with you on several points. But how likely is Trump or the Trump administration to try to combat this (unlike it's an issue that slaps him in the face)? Even then, will he combat it correctly? Will he finally listen to scientists, people who know what they're talking about, will he do it full heartedly? It's a lot of what-ifs based on Trump's competence, something that arguably hasn't been presenting itself that well.

[Uglypenguins]

trump is great, climate change is not real, have a good day folks.

[Green_Giant]

Who is more foolish, the fool or those that follow him?

[American_Walrus]

trump is great, climate change is not real, have a good day folks.

What's the point of this? If we're having a civilized discussion about the practicality of this, what's the purpose of coming in and saying "this is the truth, and that is that." This is exactly what we are debating...

 

How could you not care about climate change?

Simple: I am allowed to believe in what I believe in. Climate change is something that I don't believe is that large of an issue, sure I believe in the ice caps melting is a TERRIBLE thing, I just don't really see a reason to try and stop it, as at this point it has been researched -- TREES CAN NO LONGER SAVE EARTH FROM THE RISING C02 LEVELS --. So why even bother for making an invention that can do better than something God has made (trees).

I completely believe you are allowed to believe what you want, that's what America is/should be about. I don't know what to say other than it is a big deal, there is proof that it is a big deal. I won't get into the tie of religion into this, but shouldn't it seem like if god gave us the tools, the smarts, and the people to fix our problem (or at least try), we should follow that? Going "welp, we have trees, and they aren't enough, so we should see what happens, no point in doing something else" is incredibly flawed (in my opinion, of course). I don't get the logistics behind this.

That is the most powerful man in the world you are talking about.
Congress decided that he is the best fit for the job, and in that case at least better than Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders. Donald Trump is NOT a flawed man. He, like everyone else have done bad things. We are all humans after all.

What? He's not flawed, but he is flawed? You say he isn't flawed, then one sentence later you say he has done bad things. I wasn't referencing him as a whole or his policies (I want to keep this about environment/the Paris Accords), but he IS human (like you said) and IS flawed. I personally think this decision is a flawed decision, and you do not. That is why we are debating.

Four years is a pretty large amount of time, a lot can change in that time span.

It is, but it is only a fifth of this crucial timespan. If he doesn't do anything, which he could easily not do (or do little), an entire fifth of the time for the U.S to step up would/could be lost. That's why it's a huge issue, like you said.

 

President Trump stated very clearly he would be open to other ways to save the earth, just not this specific plan.

Let's hope he does. I really really hope he does, but if he doesn't, we're going to have a lot of work to do.

[Lucy_23x]

What? He's not flawed, but he is flawed? You say he isn't flawed, then one sentence later you say he has done bad things. I wasn't referencing him as a whole or his policies (I want to keep this about environment/the Paris Accords), but he IS human (like you said) and IS flawed. I personally think this decision is a flawed decision, and you do not. That is why we are debating.



OK you got me on that one, looking back on that that Litterally made no sense.
All I was trying to say was that he isn't flawed as in he isn't unlike everyone else.

Had to read a couple of times to understand that chan wasnt arguing with himself

[omelott]

Simple: I am allowed to believe in what I believe in. Climate change is something that I don't believe is that large of an issue, sure I believe in the ice caps melting is a TERRIBLE thing, I just don't really see a reason to try and stop it, as at this point it has been researched -- TREES CAN NO LONGER SAVE EARTH FROM THE RISING C02 LEVELS --. So why even bother for making an invention that can do better than something God has made (trees).

If you think climate change is a terrible thing, then why don't you care to do something about it? We can't stop climate change, but we can slow down the pace at which it occurs. After all, climate change is caused by human activity (as agreed upon by 97% of the worlds climatologists). From your standpoint, if 'God' created this world, shouldn't you attempt to honor his creation by living substainably and respecting the environment?

Regardless, I believe (as well as many Christians) that everything that happens in the world all leads to End Times. A Great way to put this is the Situation is with all the negativity in the world.
Here are some Leading dangers our world faces today:


Overpopulation
Climate Change - Part of the current topic
ISIS/Potential WWIII

You talk about these issues like nothing can be done (and they will inevitably lead to the destruction of our species). We (humans) have the brainpower and resources to shape our future. Given the right measures, these issues can be solved humanely.

[American_Walrus]

Care about what you want to care about - if you want your heart into stopping or learning about domestic terrorism, do it. This applies to anything political. My choice is in environmental changes. You don't have to put your heart into something like this, just be aware. If it can lead to destructive, terrible things, just be aware of what's going on. You don't have to do something about it, just don't be one of the people standing in the way. Don't live in the dark.

[blakus87]

I just want to commend you all for keeping this a discussion and seeing both sides of the road on this. I will be keeping my opinions to myself as I consider myself uninformed when it comes to climate change mostly because I feel it is the natural process on this planet. Granted we are prolly speeding up the process.

[omelott]

We are still in between Trump's first 100-200 days of being an official political mastermind. For all we know the Trump Administration could start solving the problem next year.

Please don't slash the Trump administration just because they haven't fixed one issue yet. Being a president is the most Prestigious and Important job in the World, I think he had a little plan for everything.

It should be clear by now that Donald Trump does not care about the environment. He's repeatedly stated that he believes climate change is a hoax. Since taking office, it's no secret that Donald Trump has been cozy with the fossil fuel industry. His cabinet picks, repealing of restraints on the fossil fuel industry, continuation of the construction of major pipelines and attempts to open national parks to oil and gas drilling reinforces this image. Despite his strongman image, Donald Trump will do whatever his donors tell him. What does the fossil fuel industry want from him? Any sane person could take a hint.

Of course I'm going to criticize him! Given his donors' stance on the issue (and his past actions), I have little reason to believe he'll do anything positive for the environment.

[itsConnor_]

We are still in between Trump's first 100-200 days of being an official political mastermind. For all we know the Trump Administration could start solving the problem next year.

Please don't slash the Trump administration just because they haven't fixed one issue yet. Being a president is the most Prestigious and Important job in the World, I think he had a little plan for everything.

It should be clear by now that Donald Trump does not care about the environment. He's repeatedly stated that he believes climate change is a hoax. Since taking office, it's no secret that Donald Trump has been cozy with the fossil fuel industry. His cabinet picks, repealing of restraints on the fossil fuel industry, continuation of the construction of major pipelines and attempts to open national parks to oil and gas drilling reinforces this image. Despite his strongman image, Donald Trump will do whatever his donors tell him. What does the fossil fuel industry want from him? Any sane person could take a hint.

Of course I'm going to criticize him! Given his donors' stance on the issue (and his past actions), I have little reason to believe he'll do anything positive for the environment.

My opinion is that Climate Change IS a hoax, once again showing my loyalty to Trump and the president's  desicions.

You think scientists who dedicate their lives to researching climate change are making it all up?

[omelott]

My opinion is that Climate Change IS a hoax, once again showing my loyalty to Trump and the president's  desicions.

But you wrote this earlier..

Climate change is something that I don't believe is that large of an issue, sure I believe in the ice caps melting is a TERRIBLE thing, I just don't really see a reason to try and stop it

The scientific community has already come to a conclusion. 97% of the world's climatologists agree that climate change is a real, man made phenomenon. I think a scientist would know that better than a businessman.

[omelott]

I do believe part of Climate change, just there is so much more not to believe about it, than to believe it.

And yeah. 100% Guranteed Scientists know more about it than A businessman, but there is a reason Trump was elected President. He is no Bussinessman anymore, he obviously did something right when it comes to getting a following.

And he's obviously done something wrong when it comes to keeping that following. It's only been 5 months and his approval rating has tanked below 40%.

This conversation is getting heated. Care to move it over to skype?

[itsConnor_]

We are still in between Trump's first 100-200 days of being an official political mastermind. For all we know the Trump Administration could start solving the problem next year.

Please don't slash the Trump administration just because they haven't fixed one issue yet. Being a president is the most Prestigious and Important job in the World, I think he had a little plan for everything.

It should be clear by now that Donald Trump does not care about the environment. He's repeatedly stated that he believes climate change is a hoax. Since taking office, it's no secret that Donald Trump has been cozy with the fossil fuel industry. His cabinet picks, repealing of restraints on the fossil fuel industry, continuation of the construction of major pipelines and attempts to open national parks to oil and gas drilling reinforces this image. Despite his strongman image, Donald Trump will do whatever his donors tell him. What does the fossil fuel industry want from him? Any sane person could take a hint.

Of course I'm going to criticize him! Given his donors' stance on the issue (and his past actions), I have little reason to believe he'll do anything positive for the environment.

My opinion is that Climate Change IS a hoax, once again showing my loyalty to Trump and the president's  desicions.

You think scientists who dedicate their lives to researching climate change are making it all up?

Yup.
Just like over a billion people KNOW that scientists are making up the whole story of the entire universe being created from an infinitely small space. COUGH COUGH the big bang!

What's your argument against this? https://gyazo.com/f602f253152f9fffdaa473228ca3bbed

Coincidence?

[American_Walrus]

This is what I was saying I was against, blindly following Trump just because he is the president. You should treat his title with respect, but you don't have to agree with or follow everything he says - that is foolish. You can support someone and disagree with them.

Climate change is not a hoax. Who has a bigger tendency to lie and act rashly, scientists or politicians?
There are SO many things that point that it is real
https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
Is NASA lying to you? There's a list of references at the bottom. This one has a list of reasons why it's real.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/science/human-contribution-to-gw-faq.html#.WTXjLBPyv-Y
This one talks about how humans are the major cause of global warming. Notice what "UCSUSA" means when you click on it.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/global-warming-real/
From National Geographic, a widely respected source. This one breaks it down further

So are you going to trust people that put their lives towards this research, or are you going to trust politicians who are trusting their guts? Are you going to follow one of the people standing in the way of the betterment of our planet, or are you going to at least admit that there's something to be fixed?

I encourage you believe what you want and have faith in whatever religious values you exhibit, but if there are facts presented to you, it's ridiculous to ignore them. To call them a "hoax". What if Hillary was up there right now saying that she doesn't believe in climate change? How would Republicans react? I'm not trying to compare Trump and Hillary (please don't take this back to the election), but you are only saying this because this is what Trump says.

[American_Walrus]

This has, however, not gone without warning. Several mayors to several cities have formed a new group targeted for the goals of the Paris Accords. Look at this sexiness:
https://gyazo.com/074f884b7f308e5187926138c9959040
https://gyazo.com/fd7de6c05cd69ac42719157ba5a6cec1
https://gyazo.com/36dfb95bf4dc8f8d5473f44c76d8173b

[td998]

The Paris accords were very loose for a reason. The only thing it said was that a plan be made to lower emissions. It was so loose for the purpose that no one would have a problem with it- there was no reason to back out on it. At all. I don't know why he would. He's just an idiot lol